tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post6623633447158455306..comments2024-02-18T08:45:16.295-08:00Comments on The Film Connoisseur: Antichrist (2009)Franco Macabrohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10994905312221715861noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-89004148303232229312011-03-05T21:21:58.793-08:002011-03-05T21:21:58.793-08:00Believe it or not Carl, that was one of many react...Believe it or not Carl, that was one of many reactions the film got from big critics over at Cannes. Some people got up and left the theater...thats really something for a film to cause such a big emotional reaction on people. That's a reaction not seen very often, good or bad, it makes people react, feel something. Thats the best kind of movie in my book!Franco Macabrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10994905312221715861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-51479835893930154172011-03-05T07:51:10.257-08:002011-03-05T07:51:10.257-08:00I didnt find ANTICHRIST to be misogynistic in any ...I didnt find ANTICHRIST to be misogynistic in any way whatsoever. It is the wife that causes the greatest bodily harm, her husband is nurturing to her and caring up until the insane shift in tone. I'm surprised to even hear that that interpretation exists for the film?I Like Horror Movieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15851268002582984544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-75284163943486071122011-02-25T12:43:33.690-08:002011-02-25T12:43:33.690-08:00@Odenat: I can see why you wouldnt want to see a f...@Odenat: I can see why you wouldnt want to see a film with violence towards woman, but I dont think Antichrist portrays violence in that way.<br /><br /><br />Thanks for your comments!Franco Macabrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10994905312221715861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-51511406229997163862011-02-24T20:02:05.585-08:002011-02-24T20:02:05.585-08:00@The Film Connoisseur: Thanks for debating peacefu...@The Film Connoisseur: Thanks for debating peacefully, i see your points clearly but i can not be neutral when one of my friends faced torture at the hands of our country's glorious(!) security force.<br /><br />@Mr. Fiendish: If your brain is staggered, that's because there's not much of it. Learn to debate.odenathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16101175561103761095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-44849335726802322022011-02-24T17:31:37.994-08:002011-02-24T17:31:37.994-08:00I haven't seen this yet, Fran, but will be che...I haven't seen this yet, Fran, but will be checking it out in due course. It sounds very intriguing.venoms5https://www.blogger.com/profile/13655919099947763891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-12872737729728420792011-02-24T11:10:14.173-08:002011-02-24T11:10:14.173-08:00I hate looking at films that way, in fact I really...I hate looking at films that way, in fact I really dont like the whole sexist debate thing, but I have to admit that Antichrist (and apparently the rest of Von Triers films) practically beg to see his films this way. I mean, the main characters are called 'He' and ' She'! <br /><br />Im no expert on Von Trier, I've only seen Antichrist and Dancer in the Dark, but I am intrigued by the rest of his films. I will be watching Breaking the Waves Mandarlay coming up as well as The Idiots. Thanks for the recommendations and the interesting discussion!Franco Macabrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10994905312221715861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-78523191468046588322011-02-24T10:25:37.561-08:002011-02-24T10:25:37.561-08:00Oh definitely, the majority of Von Trier's fem...Oh definitely, the majority of Von Trier's female characters evoke sympathy or even pite, yet if I were to adopt a feminist position (something which I am quite hesitant to do) I could argue that Von Trier's female characters lack many redeeming qualities within themselves. For example, Selma is hardly a positive rolemodel for a female audience, and while she does attempt to stand up for herself, she ultimately fails.<br /><br />I completely agree that it is awkward in seeing films through the male/female perspective, I mean, we hardly want to get into Lara Mulvey's Male Gaze debate for that has been disproved and reworked and argued countless times to little avail.<br /><br />An interesting Von Trier film to look at in terms of these themes and ideas would be Breaking the Waves, which I recommend if you haven't seen it. It portrays the leading lady in a very negative light, and is hardly favourable in its portrayal of the leading male character. As I said previously, I think Von Trier is equally harsh on both his female and male characters, but due to feminist discourse being more readily taken up than any sort of masculinity debate, it's the accusation of misogyny that is bandied around willynilly.<br /><br />Indeed, I have enjoyed your replies and this conversation has been incredibly interesting, so thanks for that! I must confess, Von Trier is one of my favourite directors. Love his work, and I love seeing it appreciated and discussed.Liam Underwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16663000390737921540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-16425927817929403052011-02-24T09:24:06.687-08:002011-02-24T09:24:06.687-08:00LOL, I meant, Antichrist 'wasnt' made for ...LOL, I meant, Antichrist 'wasnt' made for shocks alone, sorry bout the typo.Franco Macabrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10994905312221715861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-2519147126512478392011-02-24T09:22:56.119-08:002011-02-24T09:22:56.119-08:00@Liam: Yet did you ever feel anything but sympathy...@Liam: Yet did you ever feel anything but sympathy for the main character in Dancer in the Dark? Was she not the one you were rooting for? She was helpless, and taken advantage of, something that happens a lot in real life. Why does it have to immediately be labeled as misogynistic? It's just a character who goes through a messed up situation, no matter what the characters sex is, it still would have been messed up. <br /><br />Hey, I applaud Von Trier for putting women as the main characters in his films, I see that as a positive thing. But whatever you know, I hate to see films in those terms. ITs against women, or against men, I never even saw the film that way. <br /><br />Here's something else to think about: In Antichrist, Willem Defoe's character does nothing but help She, he wants to help her out of the dark place she is in and is willing to do anything he can in order to do that. The male character treats the female with nothing but care and affection. <br /><br />I am aware too that Misogyni can be self inflicted, and this is certainly the case with the female character in Antichrist. She hates herself for something that she considers was her fault. So the hatred and violence comes from herself. <br /><br />Still, a lot has been said about the misogynistic aspects of Antichrist, but what of the hatred portrayed in the film towards He, towards the male? In Antichrist, its quite obvious She hates He. She goes through great lengths to demonstrate that hatred, yet nothing is mentioned of the misandrist elements in the film, of She's hatred towards He, towards the male element in the film.<br /><br />But again, I refuse to see the film under those terms, to me it was a film about two people feeling guilty over something, and their psychological and physical reactions to that. <br /><br />About the religious element in Antichrist, I just see a difference between making religious references in a film, and the film actually being about christianity or its teachings.<br /><br />Thanks for the replies Liam, I love discussions like this one, love exploring the films themes.<br /><br />@J.D.: Thanks J.D., totally agree with your comments, Antichrist was made simply for shocks like say, the latest SAW film, which had an extremely thin layer of depth or meaning to it, those films serve only as an excuse for the violence, not so with films like Antichrist. Its refreshing to see filmmakers doing films that actually have some depth to them.Franco Macabrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10994905312221715861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-57398486282151254422011-02-24T08:45:34.665-08:002011-02-24T08:45:34.665-08:00Excellent review of this very difficult, polarizin...Excellent review of this very difficult, polarizing film. I saw it and once was enough for me. I'm glad I watched it but it wasn't easy - not a big fan of torture porn type material but I do think that Von Trier was trying to say something with this film above and beyond just resorting to cheap shock tactics. He is a fascinating filmmaker and I am always curious to see what he's going to do next. It's good that there's someone like him out there mixing it up and getting people talking and arguing about movies.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08164105442273577128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-51934481899579620822011-02-24T08:18:24.583-08:002011-02-24T08:18:24.583-08:00Dancer in the Dark is pretty good, as you say, dar...Dancer in the Dark is pretty good, as you say, dark but worthwhile. However, that's a perfect example of how Von Trier treats his female characters, she goes through such hell in that film and none of it is really her fault. However, it does always seem worthwhile by the end, with the film being an astonishing piece of cinema. But I do think there could be a case made for Von Trier as a misogynistic director (it's not an argument I'd comfortably back up, for I feel his outlook on male characters is also pretty damn bleak, but generally speaking feminists are the most vocal and so that's the message that seems to linger) - but I've seen the majority of his films now, and out of the ones I've seen only Medea seems to treat its female lead character with any ounce of decency.<br /><br />It's been over a year since I saw Antichrist, and I have it ready due for a rewatch, but from memory the religious element does seem to be most prominent - even beyond the obvious references to Eden and so on. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Von Trier worked on Antichrist to help deal with either depression or grief of some sort, and so it's hardly surprising these themes shine through. Still, I am looking forward to giving it another watch and seeing if I come away with any different interpretations to my initial response. <br /><br />The one thing I will say about A Serbian Film is, don't go in expecting to be too shocked. There's a lot of hype surrounding the film, and much has been said about it going "too far". Honestly, at times it's little more than an immature attempt at shocking, but the director does claim there's a political message being made with the film. Personally, I'm unfamiliar with Serbian politics, so this message was lost on me (except for some rather unsubtle dialogue). It's nowhere near the standards of Antichrist, but is nevertheless interesting and I think could play a pivotal role in where horror may go in the future.Liam Underwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16663000390737921540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-51054893859540517172011-02-24T07:12:50.766-08:002011-02-24T07:12:50.766-08:00@Castor: See, to me it was the complete opposite o...@Castor: See, to me it was the complete opposite of that. To me it wasnt shocking simply for being shocking, there was a point, a message and a reason for it all.<br /><br />It wasnt just a cheap horror film aiming to shock you and thats it, there were psychological implications for all of the characters actions. It was all very symbolic as well. Why did you feel the shock and violence was pointless? To me it would have been pointless had it no meaning or value, or message. <br /><br />Thanks for commenting!Franco Macabrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10994905312221715861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-54622191896444154072011-02-24T07:08:53.034-08:002011-02-24T07:08:53.034-08:00@Liam Underwood: I've seen Dancer in the Dark ...@Liam Underwood: I've seen Dancer in the Dark and though it was a dark dark trip, I love that movie. On a technical level it was very impressive, considering how many cameras they used for some of the scenes, but also, the movie grabbed me, and yeah, he put Bjork through hell in that movie, but the result I think was worth it every step of the way, plus, it has that awesome Bjork soundtrack made specifically for the film. <br /><br />For Antichrist, Von Trier was having a hard time finding his lead actress, but it was Charlotte Gainsbourg who knocked on Von Triers door to be in the film, she was dying to work with him on this one, so I guess she knew what she was getting herself into and who she was working with when she decided to be on this film. Her worked payed off, she won various awards for best actress, including the one at the Cannes Film Festival.<br /><br />I agree the film is opened to various interpretations, but I went with the most obvious one, its about coping with death, and guilt over the death of their son, and the psychological hell they go through, to me Von Trier used religious references to show that.<br /><br />Eden is really their psychological Hell, He is satan because he let the child die, and because he was distant towards both She and the child. I loved how Von Trier mixed all these religious references with the themes of the film. <br /><br />I've heard a lot about A Serbian Film, and I've heard what is depicted in it, but damn, I dont know if I want to go there! Still, I like to test my limits, I'll probably end up checking it out sometime soon.<br /><br />Thanks for your kind comments! <br /><br />@JackL: Glad you enjoyed the review, hope you get around to seen this one!Franco Macabrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10994905312221715861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-55684494922144720112011-02-24T07:08:43.784-08:002011-02-24T07:08:43.784-08:00Very polarizing movie and I'm glad you enjoyed...Very polarizing movie and I'm glad you enjoyed it a lot more than many people including me ;) I really thought it was incredibly shocking and graphic just for the sake of being incredibly shocking and graphic. There was no real point to it and the characters weren't very engaging for me. Just my 2c.Castorhttp://www.anomalousmaterial.com/moviesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-10356666515777264652011-02-24T05:35:02.029-08:002011-02-24T05:35:02.029-08:00Excellent review!
Despite the film's controve...Excellent review!<br /><br />Despite the film's controversy (or maybe because of it) I haven't seen this one yet. So I really can't comment on it as I try to avoid forming ideas of a film before seeing it.<br />I enjoyed your review though, very enjoyable to read!Jack Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14558083317361098572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-3599334495141499572011-02-24T05:18:55.794-08:002011-02-24T05:18:55.794-08:00I'm pleased you enjoyed this, for I really dug...I'm pleased you enjoyed this, for I really dug it when I caught it last year. The comparison to They Call Her One Eye hadn't occurred to me before, but now you've pointed it out I totally get that - nice observation!<br /><br />I think the misogynist claims come from the fact that Von Trier is a director who puts not only his female characters through hell, but sometimes the actresses too - pushing to breaking point in some cases. I'm not sure if you've seen any of his other films, but I got the impression that critics familiar with Von Trier's work were prepared for misogynistic undertones, and so on the look out it is possible to interpret the film in such a way (woman as the cause for all evil, perhaps?). Von Trier does explicitly show She as a bad mother, and I feel this film is open to various interpretations. Personally, I don't think it is misogynistic, but I can see why others would.<br /><br />When it comes to torture porn taking on a most literal meaning, I'd advise you check out A Serbian Film. It's a challenging piece of cinema, but worthy of discussion and I'd be curious to read your thoughts on it.<br /><br />Anyway, this was an awesome review! Nice to see someone approaching Antichrist with an open mind.Liam Underwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16663000390737921540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-86436226524103158722011-02-24T03:13:35.892-08:002011-02-24T03:13:35.892-08:00@Mr. Fiendish: It is a slow paced film, more of a ...@Mr. Fiendish: It is a slow paced film, more of a psychological thing, introspective. <br /><br />@Planet of Terror: When it was released, reviews ranged from "great piece of art, daring filmmaking" to "this is misogynistic crap!" Polar opposites. I guess its a love it or hate it film. The more conservative side will find it repulsive, while the more artistic open minded side will see the value of the film and what its trying to say. Im right there with you, I thought it was a brilliant piece of filmmaking. <br /><br />@Odenat: Im of the mind that an artist can express him or herself freely, reflecting the world we live in and the world we live in isnt always a pretty thing, in fact, most of the time its pretty damn bleak when you really look at things. Human nature has an extremely dark and violent side to it, and it needs to be explored and addressed in art and that includes films. It helps us see ourselves, and learn from how we see ourselves. Films like Antichrist do just that. How an audience will react to any given piece of art is out of the artists hands. <br /><br />@Mr. Fiendish: Easy bro, respect is the key word here at The Film Connoisseur! <br /><br />Thanks everybody for their comments!Franco Macabrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10994905312221715861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-90117839859886005092011-02-23T20:35:07.352-08:002011-02-23T20:35:07.352-08:00the ignorance of your comment staggers the brain, ...the ignorance of your comment staggers the brain, odenatMr. Fiendishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14400272984451242034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-61623119279879900212011-02-23T20:18:52.269-08:002011-02-23T20:18:52.269-08:00well, it seems that you are right saying that this...well, it seems that you are right saying that this film polarized the audiences, i hated it. The torture part was really sick and altough i agree that people must see whatever they want, when it comes to torture, i will gladly make exception. People must not be allowed to see these things, you never know how many sick people is out there waiting to do similar things to their victims.odenathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16101175561103761095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-56425777247936335012011-02-23T16:28:15.626-08:002011-02-23T16:28:15.626-08:00I loved this film and don't see any of the mis...I loved this film and don't see any of the misogynistic tones/actions that people claim. I feel as though the title of the film and situation they were in was a complete polar opposite to what 'Eden' stood for. That is, the place and their predicament served to show just how much both people had fallen and to display how much they had both lost touch with reality. I thought it was brilliant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8293273378239831747.post-86569713875721029452011-02-23T14:53:18.187-08:002011-02-23T14:53:18.187-08:00I disagree. I wasn't engaged by the story or ...I disagree. I wasn't engaged by the story or the characters. and i guess I've seen way too many films to get shocked by the violence or the explicit sex scenes.<br /><br />I do give props to this movie for curing a really bad case of insomnia I was having at the time it came out.Mr. Fiendishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14400272984451242034noreply@blogger.com